occupy wall street [Archive] - Page 2 - Beastie Boys Message Board

Burnout18

01-23-2012, 06:38 PM

You wanna say that sexism and racism doesn't exist in 2012, or that it doesn't affect people, but it totally still does.

Anyway, some of you guys are talking to me in a way you wouldn't talk to a guy. You want to dominate, you want to prove me wrong. But, I think I have more experience and knowledge than you guys in general practical terms, and that you should be open to learning more about what we're discussing...instead of picking fights with me over semantics.

Ok I specifically said not to turn this into a racism isn't dead thread because I know it isn't. Totally put words in my mouth, there. And fuck off with that other paragraph. Go back and look at my comments to rob money, or my reply to sir scratch.

Seriously. Fuck off. The victim card? Accusing me of sexism? Are you fucking serious? I am fucking disgusted. Your responses in this thread are based on preconceived notions, biases and prejudices, no surprise you'd now try this shit. You have defended anything well so now you have to try to paint me( and whoever else you meant by you guys) as sexists to dimish our points. Sad

Occupy has been In effective. Period.

Burnout18

01-23-2012, 06:40 PM

:rolleyes:

Do some research on income disparity and get back to me

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do some research on if rolling eyes is witty And get back to me.

Dorothy Wood

01-23-2012, 07:10 PM

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do some research on if rolling eyes is witty And get back to me.

so, did you actually read what I wrote for a follow up? or are you just going to try to insult me by questioning my wit? because that was pretty weak, dude.

yeahwho

01-23-2012, 07:55 PM

Occupy has been In effective. Period.

Does not compute.

The more I hear that statement the more I realize how effective occupy wall street really is. Things that are ineffective do not become mantras are brands on a global level.

Occupying parks and town centers worked. Spring is coming and I sort of doubt corporate tax breaks, income inequality and those who ripped off trillions of dollars from us, "the taxpayers" are going to disappear.

Do you think the Tea Party is going to make a bold move to stop this situation?

Ineffectiveness does not give you 3 times as many results on google than the Tea Party.

Tea Party Results as of this date 102,000,000 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tea+party&hl=en&prmd=imvnsl&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=6AweT_6BO4_qtgfo6qFU&ved=0CB8QpwUoAA)

Occupy Wall Street Results as of this date 381,000,000 (http://www.google.com/search?q=occupy+wall+street&hl=en&tbas=0&tbs=clue:1&prmd=imvnsu&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=8gweT5X7MIf4tgfapbAv&ved=0CA0QpwUoAA)

Dorothy Wood

01-23-2012, 08:23 PM

Ok I specifically said not to turn this into a racism isn't dead thread because I know it isn't. Totally put words in my mouth, there. And fuck off with that other paragraph. Go back and look at my comments to rob money, or my reply to sir scratch.

Seriously. Fuck off. The victim card? Accusing me of sexism? Are you fucking serious? I am fucking disgusted. Your responses in this thread are based on preconceived notions, biases and prejudices, no surprise you'd now try this shit. You have defended anything well so now you have to try to paint me( and whoever else you meant by you guys) as sexists to dimish our points. Sad

Occupy has been In effective. Period.

okay, so you would assume that a guy was jealous of a wedding just for mentioning it? because that's what you, turch, and whatitis assumed of me right off the bat.

My responses are based on facts, on experience. On working with the public for 17 god damn years. and before that, I grew up out west in the suburbs and my family was pretty well off. I had a fucking horse when I was 8. then that ended and I lived in a basement with my mom in Detroit, then with my grandma. then my mom started from scratch and rebuilt her life and brought us out of poverty with no government assistance, none. I went to 3 different elementary schools, public and private, in rich neighborhoods and in poor. I used to have a job hosting walks for seniors.

I almost forgot I have a teaching degree! I've taught in the inner city, one of my kids was stabbed in the fucking knee. I've also tutored rich kids. Do you have that kind of depth of experience with American society?

You're gonna yell at me and tell me I don't know shit, when I am positive that I know what I'm talking about. and yeah, I'm using the "victim card", how am I not a victim? I will admit that I feel like a victim, it's part of the healing process. So, I'm sorry, did you have to watch your mom put a gun to your father's head while holding you at age 4? did you get hit in the face with a telephone receiver when you were 5? did you get the shit beat out of you when you were 7 by boys in your class because you were a "new kid"? did the cops come to your house at 4 a.m. and tell you they found your step dad dead in the park when you were 17?

I have not said anything specific to you at all regarding your personal life and choices, yet this thread is completely filled with baseless attacks on mine. because I'm trying to prove that I know more about life than you do, and you just can't fucking accept it. well grow up!

I have been victimized, and I have overcome it. And I will continue to overcome it. but I won't stand by and let assholes victimize me further. So I am standing up for myself with everything that I'm saying.

you're willfully ignorant, and that's the saddest thing of all.

Burnout18

01-23-2012, 10:24 PM

so, did you actually read what I wrote for a follow up? or are you just going to try to insult me by questioning my wit? because that was pretty weak, dude.

Not as weak as the original comment with the eye rolling. I'm aware of the statistics. Just like how I'm unimpressed with "raising awareness" as an accomplishment of OWS, that post didn't rock my world. Same reason... I'm aware of the stats already.

With women, it's unfortunate but it's true, when a married couple wants to start a family the lovely lady can lose 5 maybe ten years of their career depending on number of kids. A guy loses two maybe three weeks a year too paternity leave. If that. That's unfair but I mean, men cant get pregnant. what are you gonna do? See sometimes life happens, not the Man holding you down.

Regardless of the statistics, there are women and minorities across the board in high levels of business and government. Christ I know I mentioned only the most famous examples, but come on here how many individuals do you need before you stop blaming the white man like me? Seriously. I got it. Its our fault I got it.

Burnout18

01-23-2012, 10:30 PM

Occupying parks and town centers worked. Spring is coming and I sort of doubt corporate tax breaks, income inequality and those who ripped off trillions of dollars from us, "the taxpayers" are going to disappear.

Do you think the Tea Party is going to make a bold move to stop this situation?

Ineffectiveness does not give you 3 times as many results on google than the Tea Party.

Tea Party Results as of this date 102,000,000 (http://www.google.com/search?q=tea+party&hl=en&prmd=imvnsl&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=6AweT_6BO4_qtgfo6qFU&ved=0CB8QpwUoAA)

Occupy Wall Street Results as of this date 381,000,000 (http://www.google.com/search?q=occupy+wall+street&hl=en&tbas=0&tbs=clue:1&prmd=imvnsu&tbas=0&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=8gweT5X7MIf4tgfapbAv&ved=0CA0QpwUoAA)

Ahhh I don't know if google searches are a measure of effectiveness, but I'll say occupy is more intriguing movement. It certainly received more negative and positive attention. I think stewart's mock rally had almost as many in attendance then glen beck and Sara palin's rally.

I felt the tea party was kind of not taken seriously,,,,then son of bitch they go and take credit for getting congressmen and a senator (Paul) elected. So I dunno, the tea part will evaporate when obama leaves office. I think. I hope.

Dorothy Wood

01-23-2012, 10:51 PM

Burnout, I'm like flabbergasted that you still think I'm blaming you, specifically.

What I'm blaming is tolerance of bullshit. Millions of people are struggling, some are fighting back, and some are trying to do it with occupy. Yet, y'all sit back and say "eh, it's not that bad, this is the land of opportunity, etc". Well yeah, for you. For some. Too bad there are people who can't find opportunity.

I said all that personal stuff to make you guys see that I'm a real person. I had it bad, but not as bad as some. I made it through because of my mom's hard work ethic, but not everyone has an example like that.

We've got big problems here and all you guys wanna do is complain about how weird/dirty/annoying protesters are.

I'll I'm screaming is have a fucking heart, listen to what the demands are instead of brushing it off and focusing on the clowns giving the movement q bad name.

Burnout18

01-23-2012, 10:53 PM

okay, so you would assume that a guy was jealous of a wedding just for mentioning it? because that's what you, turch, and whatitis assumed of me right off the bat.

I almost forgot I have a teaching degree! I've taught in the inner city, one of my kids was stabbed in the fucking knee. I've also tutored rich kids. Do you have that kind of depth of experience with American society?

I have not said anything specific to you at all regarding your personal life and choices, yet this thread is completely filled with baseless attacks on mine. because I'm trying to prove that I know more about life than you do, and you just can't fucking accept it. well grow up!

you're willfully ignorant, and that's the saddest thing of all.

First off all telling me about whatever the fuck your mom and dad did does nothing for me, except prove to me what turch said before about how you hijack a thread. Sorry, this sounds horrible, but this isn't the place for me to give a fuck about it.

Secondly. There you go again! Assuming I don't know anything about anything. Preconceived notions. Shame on you. Wat the fuck do you think? I'm rich white kid from a hill who doesn't leave his house? Holy shit almighty. I went to a high school where it was half and half with race and well off kids and poor kids same with college (public schools work(y)). Then during the last year of college and first year out of school I worked in a warehouse uptown where I was counting jewelry and I was the one white kid..... Bla bla bla bla bla see how fuckin boring this is? Who gives a fuck about my background? And why the fuck would do you need to know about that?

People are assholes. You ever think that maybe someone talked down to you cause they are a dick head and not a bigot? By you judging me I'm beginning to think your a little to quick to pull the trigger on the bigot Clause. And no shit people are gonna come at you In a political forum when you say extremely biased shit. Welcome to the real world.

First Someone's a white male, then a sexist, now just ignorant. You have no fuckin idea how to deal with people unless you can label them. Sorry but just because someone calls you put on you preconceived notions and doesn't see things 100 percent your way doesn't make them ignorant. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: #BeingWitty RT?

Burnout18

01-23-2012, 11:01 PM

Oh what it's worth, my roomate teaches middle school social studies in Newark. For a year now i've listened to him talk about the gang violence, the kids with no shot, the kids with a shot to get into a good school but the don't give a fuck, and the kids who will hopefully get out of there.

I go down there drop him off, pick him up and go there on saturdays to work weekend detention, depending on the kids there....(cause I get work done, me me me me being selfish, I know)

I know that's not teaching myself but I'm certainly not some out of touch ignorant asshole. You have to stop thinking you the one white person with life experience ad belittling ppl who don't agree with you.

Dorothy Wood

01-23-2012, 11:12 PM

Wow, just wow. You know, I would listen to your life story because unlike you I care about details.

This whole thing is nuts!

Sir SkratchaLot

01-24-2012, 07:19 AM

Not as weak as the original comment with the eye rolling. I'm aware of the statistics. Just like how I'm unimpressed with "raising awareness" as an accomplishment of OWS, that post didn't rock my world. Same reason... I'm aware of the stats already.

With women, it's unfortunate but it's true, when a married couple wants to start a family the lovely lady can lose 5 maybe ten years of their career depending on number of kids. A guy loses two maybe three weeks a year too paternity leave. If that. That's unfair but I mean, men cant get pregnant. what are you gonna do? See sometimes life happens, not the Man holding you down.

Regardless of the statistics, there are women and minorities across the board in high levels of business and government. Christ I know I mentioned only the most famous examples, but come on here how many individuals do you need before you stop blaming the white man like me? Seriously. I got it. Its our fault I got it.

Dude, if women and minorities were treated equally in society, then their percentages in positions of power would be relatively equal to their percentages in population. Just because there are a few people who are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean everything in hunky dory. I understand that you never claimed "racism is over now that we have a black president" but you keep using that as an example to downplay the fact that race and gender are still major obsticals to large portions of our society getting into positions of influence. And it's not just women and racial minorities, there's another huge sections of society that doesn't have the same odds: the poor. It's not an even playing field. And it doesn't have to be an truely even playing field, but it has to be closer than it is now. The way the system is set up now, the rich continue to get richer and richer while the poor can't make a living wage. It's not that the rich are working harder, its that they've designed a system where they always win. It's like a casino, yes you can strike it rich, but more often than not the house wins. It's disingenuous to tell people who are disadvantaged to begin with that it's all their fault and the only thing holding them back is them.

Before you go all Newt Gingrich on me about how "disgusted" you are about how anyone could think you're being insensitive and naive, consider the fact that you're a white male, who doesn't have the same type of obsticals as many others, saying to them "you're the only thing holding you back." That's like beating a legless man in a race and saying "you just need to try harder bro, it's your own fault you lost, it's all on you though. Let me tell you about the ant and the grashopper . . ." You're defensiveness just comes off as insensitivity and ignorance.

There's absolutely no reason for you to be defensive. When someone says "the man is holding me down" they don't specifically mean you. There's no need to get all defensive just because you're a white guy. The "man" is really the institutional bias that has been operating for 100's of years, and yes, it does cater to the rich, white, man. Unfortunately for you though, you're not pegged to be flying around in private jets. Maybe your chances are better than Dorothy's, but don't start counting chickens. Nope, it's a certain breed of rich white men who dominate every aspect of our society. It's not that they work harder, it's that the system is leveraged for them. Oppression rarely comes in the form of classist, racist or sexist slurs these days. It comes in subtleties. By just doing the same thing we've always done, and not thinking about it, the institutions continue to disadvantage certain segments of society and give the advantage to others. This is why its particularly annoying to see banks and corporations getting a pass in situations where the individual gets put in jail. Your typical bank is getting bailed out while your typical working class joe is getting 25 to life. It's even more annyoing when the bank says "It's all your fault, you should have tried harder."

The "American Dream" is part of the reason why the rich have gotten away with so much. Even though the rags to riches scenario is HIGHLY FUCKING UNLIKELY, it's possible. And they sell that dream to people, which diverts attention to the fact that the cards are stacked. They can point to the one guy who is a rags to riches story and say "see anything is possible." It's a sham. If you challenge the fact that the cards are stacked, that's somehow "unAmerican" and "socialist".

The reason that the simple exposure of the division of wealth is monumental is because the subject has been taboo for so long. Your average poor man or woman wasn't thinking that their lot in life had anything to do with the cards being stacked (you might be labeld unAmerican if you think that.) To the contrary, they're thinking that if they work hard, don't overspend, and play their cards right then they too can be rich and powerful. The thing is, now people are finally becoming open to the fact that this is rarely the case. When you do everything right and STILL lose your home (whe you're still making all of your monthly payments to boot) that's a hard pill to swallow. You've got the OWS blaming the corporations, and the tea party blaming the government, but really, it's the same damn institutions doing the same thing they've always done. Maybe they just got a little too greedy this time and showed their hand too much.

For whatever reason, people are taking notice. That's a big accomplishment.

Vic Colfari

01-24-2012, 09:27 AM

I don't have to tell my life story and how I'm a simple self sufficient guy who never racked up any debt (or inherited a single dime), product of public education and pell grants, and all the meaningful activism and awareness campaigns I have been part of and fought for. I have been able to live comfortably (in the two most expensive and populated cities in the country) by not overspending and by living within my means, not because of my race or ethnic background. THAT'S WHAT OCCUPY IS ABOUT, NO?

I've been fan of Linda Ronstadt since the Stone Poneys in 1968 when I heard 'Different Drum'. I have all her albums, originally in vinyl (now in storage) and then buying everything in CD. Although I like many performers, Linda is my number one artists. Through Linda I found many other artist and I continue look forward to anything she does.

Dorothy Wood

01-24-2012, 10:01 AM

Holy crap sir skratchalot, thank you!

Vic Colfari

01-24-2012, 11:23 AM

You guys are forgetting that a major criticism involving Linda Ronstadt's politics arose during a July 17, 2004 performance at the Aladdin Theatre for the Performing Arts in Las Vegas.

Toward the end of her performance, as she had done across the country, Ronstadt spoke to the audience, praising Fahrenheit 9/11, Michael Moore's documentary film about the Iraq War, and dedicated the song "Desperado" to Moore.

Dorothy Wood

01-24-2012, 05:28 PM

With women, it's unfortunate but it's true, when a married couple wants to start a family the lovely lady can lose 5 maybe ten years of their career depending on number of kids. A guy loses two maybe three weeks a year too paternity leave. If that. That's unfair but I mean, men cant get pregnant. what are you gonna do? See sometimes life happens, not the Man holding you down.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but this, this right here is a prime example of ignorance with a dash of sexism. you're assuming that the only economic disadvantage that a woman might have would arise from giving birth...hmm. what about the women who don't get pregnancy leave? what about moms who don't have "careers"? what about women who go right back to work and the dad raises the kids?

you're assuming that every parent is married and has an office job or something similar. but not all babies are born with a stay-at-home parent at all. and not all women have babies. and child birth is not a form of discrimination perpetrated by society. therefore, your example is not the kind of oppression I'm talking about.

here's a real example of discrimination, and it's a personal one, hope you can handle it. 6 years ago after a male coworker and I left the same company, we applied for the same job at another place not knowing we had each applied. I had 2 more years experience than he did in the same field, but he got the job. I didn't even get an interview. When I talked to him about it, he was like, "yeah, they don't hire women."

so, it's not in my head.

when you say these stories or examples doing nothing for you, and not impressing you, and it's just the internet so why should you care, etc....it just reinforces the idea that you're inflexible and you don't care about anyone but yourself.

I've lost my temper in here, but I do care about people, and I want everyone to be healthy and happy. Part of getting to that point is understanding how and why not everyone is able to get to that state...and particularly now, when opportunities are fewer for low income folks, and we've got people like Mitt Romney, a front runner, saying stuff like he's "unemployed" and that he did a few speaking engagements, but "didn't get paid very much", and it turns out he got paid around $374,000. For speaking. the median gross income in America is around $33,000. It would take over 10 years for the average american to make that kind of money.

there's a disconnect from poverty when you don't have to live in it. it's easy to deny, because you don't want to think about it, you don't want to be responsible. and you're not, you're only responsible for yourself because we've cultivated a "me" culture in this country, and that's the law of the land...I think they call it "freedom". but that kind of individualistic motivation leads to the destruction of the society as a whole. If go-getters and job makers are the only ones who can make things work, why isn't America perfect? because of too many taxes? bullshit.

Do whatever you want in your life, contribute what you want, or nothing at all, but don't disparage the people who are trying to make a difference. that's all I'm saying.

people need to learn to control themselves, or we're just going to keep losing freedom. I wish Occupiers would work more with the system, I won't deny that. My city is installing cameras everywhere and making new laws against protesting because of the Occupy protesters. I don't want to live in a police state, but I also don't want corporations to rule my country. So, something's got to give. Revolution is not a simple task, and it doesn't just fix everything in 6 months, 3 years, or even 30. So I remain patient.

Burnout18

01-24-2012, 06:43 PM

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but this, this right here is a prime example of ignorance with a dash of sexism. you're assuming that the only economic disadvantage that a woman might have would arise from giving birth...hmm. what about the women who don't get pregnancy leave? what about moms who don't have "careers"? what about women who go right back to work and the dad raises the kids?

I've lost my temper in here, but I do care about people, and I want everyone to be healthy and happy. Part of getting to that point is understanding how and why not everyone is able to get to that state...and particularly now, when opportunities are fewer for low income folks, and we've got people like Mitt Romney, a front runner, saying stuff like he's "unemployed" and that he did a few speaking engagements, but "didn't get paid very much", and it turns out he got paid around $374,000. For speaking. the median gross income in America is around $33,000. It would take over 10 years for the average american to make that kind of money.

there's a disconnect from poverty when you don't have to live in it. it's easy to deny, because you don't want to think about it, you don't want to be responsible. and you're not, you're only responsible for yourself because we've cultivated a "me" culture in this country, and that's the law of the land...I think they call it "freedom". but that kind of individualistic motivation leads to the destruction of the society as a whole. If go-getters and job makers are the only ones who can make things work, why isn't America perfect? because of too many taxes? bullshit.

So I remain patient.

Woa woa woa. That was an example of why there are discrepancies in the statistics, not the sole reason. Obviously, and famously, the Hillary clintons and Sarah palins overcame that, like I said earlier. Of course thats not the law or rule. Not to mention, let's be honest here, a woman in her 60s didn't have the same opportunities as woman In her 20s right now. Where only a couple generations away from colleges being mostly all men. So while a male in his 60s may have the life experience backed by advanced degrees, a woman his age might not have that chance..... But that's shit from before I was born, and believe you me we know that's going to level out by the time I'm 65.

But with that being said, why does the white male in his 20s on some sort of a free ride? I don't get a free ride. And total bullshit to say that, cause that's taking away from what people accomplish. that's the reverse of someone pointing to an African American and calling said person "just an affirmative action hire" unfair. That comes off like you are lumping me with a ruling class cause I'm a white male. Unfair. I don't still don't get while that preconceived notion is okay, but I'm the ignorant sexist.

And I'm not inflexible, I just don't want to fall into you playing the victim card.

Burnout18

01-24-2012, 07:28 PM

Dude, if women and minorities were treated equally in society, then their there's another huge sections of society that doesn't ha the poor. It's not an even playing field. And it doesn't have to be an truely even playing field, but it has to be closer than it is now. The way the system is set up now, the rich continue to get richer and richer while the poor can't make a living wage.

There's absolutely no reason for you to be defensive. When someone says "the man is holding me down" they don't specifically mean you.

For whatever reason, people are taking notice. That's a big accomplishment.

First off I cut down your quote cause I'm on a mobile device, I read it all.

Dude I'm not just talking about a few exceptions. Every job i've had I've been under women or a minority. In fact right now I'm an accountant for a (admittedly borderline) fortune 500 company and the controller and VP of finance I report to are women. And I never thought That's weird or out of ordinary or I have a problem with that. Thats common place for me.

So why do I come on here and I have to be told that I have an advantage over them? Why do i come here and it sounds like i should be talking down to them? Am i better then them? No I'm clearly not. Whats the difference between how I look at them and the men dorothy thinks a she's sees that are sexist? Is it cause I grew up in north jersey and not the deep south? Is it cause I was born in 1985 and not 1905?

And you speak of obstacles. What obstacles do others have that I don't? I went to school with people of all races and both sexes. Where's the advantage for me there? You think I'm gonna sit down at an interview and get a job on my race or sex? Really? Your gonna tell me I might not deserve it? Cause thats what you said, I may have an advantage over someone like Dorothy.

And I'm defensive cause out of no where I got a passive accusation of racism, and believe me I'm gonna defend myself against that. I have a right to defend myself. We all do.

And as for rags to riches, like i said earlier in this thread, theres chances to go from lower to middle class and middle to upper class. Education has a lot to do with it and unfortunately some of your fates are sealed by the time your 22 years old, but you know it's there. Don't act like it isn't. And if you feel the card are already stacked and you have no shot, then there you go. You really don't have a shot at anything. Believe me, i think Rags to riches is a bullshit cliche. However you could always beat the generation before you, like I also said earlier I hope my kids are better off than me.

Awareness? Im telling you the statistics have been there since well before occupy was born. The tea party tried to capitalize on it. The nominee you mentioned, newt, calls Obama the food stamp president. Thats not new. Tea party members called Obama that before occupy. And its not to be racist, it's cause a shit ton of people are on "government entitlement programs" ... And thats a sign of wealth inequality? Right?

So I guess it boils down to what sources you listen to, and who you want to vilify.

yeahwho

01-24-2012, 10:14 PM

I was just thinking about Linda Ronstad in the 80's, didn't she gain some pretty serious weight right around the same time Reagan's policies made ketchup a vegetable and government cheese was readily available?

Dorothy Wood

01-24-2012, 11:01 PM

Woa woa woa. That was an example of why there are discrepancies in the statistics, not the sole reason. Obviously, and famously, the Hillary clintons and Sarah palins overcame that, like I said earlier. Of course thats not the law or rule. Not to mention, let's be honest here, a woman in her 60s didn't have the same opportunities as woman In her 20s right now. Where only a couple generations away from colleges being mostly all men. So while a male in his 60s may have the life experience backed by advanced degrees, a woman his age might not have that chance..... But that's shit from before I was born, and believe you me we know that's going to level out by the time I'm 65.

But with that being said, why does the white male in his 20s on some sort of a free ride? I don't get a free ride. And total bullshit to say that, cause that's taking away from what people accomplish. that's the reverse of someone pointing to an African American and calling said person "just an affirmative action hire" unfair. That comes off like you are lumping me with a ruling class cause I'm a white male. Unfair. I don't still don't get while that preconceived notion is okay, but I'm the ignorant sexist.

And I'm not inflexible, I just don't want to fall into you playing the victim card.

listen, you keep putting this on yourself, but I'm not speaking about you specifically. I'm saying that yes, white men have more advantages. but I can also concede that not every single white man has the same advantages or more than every single non-white person. But when you stack it all up together, they come out on top. I'm saying there are advantages that you enjoy that you don't even think about, they're just built into the social consciousness.

these are facts, bottom line. I'm saying that you might not understand the feeling of hopelessness that millions of citizens cope with. Is that only because you're white? no, of course not. and honestly, I didn't intend any of this to be a comment on race at all. I was using the visual data I gained from a picture, to make the point that it's easy not to understand deep suffering when one has not suffered that deeply. I really just said the white thing because white people in this country suffer less, generally. and the generally is important because it doesn't mean that all white people have it great...it's that, on average, white people suffer the least oppression in this country.

I don't know your background, I don't know Turch's, but I do know wealth and/or stability when I see it. I know the attitude. I know that someone who had a hard time in life wouldn't just brush the Occupy movement aside. People with stability think, "pfft, I worked my ass off to get where I am, work harder!" and don't think I haven't thought that in regard to some of the kids down there. I don't agree with the circus aspect, but that's life. I'm not going to camp out downtown in front of the federal bank because that role is not for me. But it got people's attention, it got my attention. and I just can't see how complaining about them does any good, when the actual fundamental ideas behind what they're fighting for are good for all of us. We do need to wake up and see that we live in a new gilded age, where we've been sold the idea that money=substance. That we should just borrow and buy and borrow some more, for what? it's crazy, the banks ran wild giving credit, and then sold the debt and bet against the people they gave the credit to.

and like I said, I overcame my victimization in that I'm not living on the street or in my mom's basement, and in some ways it makes me work harder. but I still live in a world where opportunities are unfair because certain people don't want it to be fair, and they actively sustain and extend the unfairness through lobbying and tax loopholes. by taking advantage of people living in poverty for their own financial gain.

these things are wrong, and Occupy is trying to bring that to light. and it's a good thing.

Sir SkratchaLot

01-25-2012, 01:10 PM

First off I cut down your quote cause I'm on a mobile device, I read it all.

Dude I'm not just talking about a few exceptions. Every job i've had I've been under women or a minority. In fact right now I'm an accountant for a (admittedly borderline) fortune 500 company and the controller and VP of finance I report to are women. And I never thought That's weird or out of ordinary or I have a problem with that. Thats common place for me.

So why do I come on here and I have to be told that I have an advantage over them? Why do i come here and it sounds like i should be talking down to them? Am i better then them? No I'm clearly not. Whats the difference between how I look at them and the men dorothy thinks a she's sees that are sexist? Is it cause I grew up in north jersey and not the deep south? Is it cause I was born in 1985 and not 1905?

And you speak of obstacles. What obstacles do others have that I don't? I went to school with people of all races and both sexes. Where's the advantage for me there? You think I'm gonna sit down at an interview and get a job on my race or sex? Really? Your gonna tell me I might not deserve it? Cause thats what you said, I may have an advantage over someone like Dorothy.

And I'm defensive cause out of no where I got a passive accusation of racism, and believe me I'm gonna defend myself against that. I have a right to defend myself. We all do.

And as for rags to riches, like i said earlier in this thread, theres chances to go from lower to middle class and middle to upper class. Education has a lot to do with it and unfortunately some of your fates are sealed by the time your 22 years old, but you know it's there. Don't act like it isn't. And if you feel the card are already stacked and you have no shot, then there you go. You really don't have a shot at anything. Believe me, i think Rags to riches is a bullshit cliche. However you could always beat the generation before you, like I also said earlier I hope my kids are better off than me.

Awareness? Im telling you the statistics have been there since well before occupy was born. The tea party tried to capitalize on it. The nominee you mentioned, newt, calls Obama the food stamp president. Thats not new. Tea party members called Obama that before occupy. And its not to be racist, it's cause a shit ton of people are on "government entitlement programs" ... And thats a sign of wealth inequality? Right?

So I guess it boils down to what sources you listen to, and who you want to vilify.

Just because you happen to have a woman boss doesn't mean women are on equal footing at the workplace with men. You're using anecdotal evidence and applying it universally (not that you're the only one in this thread doing it.) Women are roughly 50% of the population, yet, women only make up 16% of Congress. Only 12 Fortune 500 companies have women CEOs.

There a lots and lots of reasons why certain segments of society don't have the same advantages as someone like George Bush, or Robert Kenedy. The poor are often spending more resources on simply surviving, and therefore don't excell in school. There are a number of language and cultural barriers that many white people don't have to deal with at school and in jobs. Girls are treated much differently in our school systems than boys. They are often discouraged in areas where boys are encouraged. Then you've got the fact that when women act the same way men do they are often percieved as "cunts". They're still only making about 80 cents on the dollar compared to men. Society often abitrarily puts greater value on things that white men are geared to excell at because of their cultural upbringing. Historically, the SAT, the LSAT, IQ tests, etc. have all been culturally geared towards white men. Many of these things may be invisible to you because you are white, and you are a man, but they are more than visible to a lot of minorities and women. If I took you over to Afghanistan and dropped you into their school system you'd probably do poorly simply because you're a fish out of water and your skills and values don't line up with theirs. Things you take for granted now would become very clear. Even if they didn't openly discriminate against you, you'd still struggle because of the various cultural and institutional barriers that evolve to favor those in power. Even when systems aren't intentionally designed to favor certain groups, they often evovle that way.

In America, many of the rules, and many of our institutions are purposefully set up to cater to the rich (which happens to be mostly white men.) Those who make the rules often make them to favor themselves. The playing field has gotten severely out of whack.

Sorry if that happens to make you feel like your accomplishments aren't as great as you think they are. There's no point in deluding yourself though.

yeahwho

01-25-2012, 06:15 PM

I kind of doubt Occupy Wall Street has/had any intention on debating racial inequality. Not that I'm saying none of the arguments about privilege make sense. The race issue is a red herring to ignore the real failings of our government to do it's job. Like not prosecute those who just robbed us of multiple trillions of dollars. I'm paying in more ways than one everyday while some motherfucking asshole is taking that money.

If somebody gave me grief about my marriage, car, house or anything I've managed to hold onto I would be offended. I'm pretty sure we're all just working stiffs that are getting screwed by something much larger than us and our elected officials have helped perpetuate this fraud.

That is why Occupy Wall Street is so awesome. It gives the power to us. All of us. I have a neighbor who just lost his restaurant after 8 years, another 2 in more serious condition... foreclosure has been beckoning them the past few years... I have direct family members accumulating massive debt.

Fuck a whole lot of luxury problems, I know I'm just a few bad luck scenarios from being in that same position. My best intended priorities can be demolished if I do not question the complete lack of representation by our elected officials.

They heard Occupy Wall Street and some of them applauded the movement, others just hope and pray that little squabbles about race, garbage, hygiene and camping will kill the movement. So business as usual stays on the profitable side of those who could give a rats ass about America, you and your family.

I say it again, occupy early and occupy often.

Dorothy Wood

01-25-2012, 11:29 PM

I appreciate what you're saying, and I wanna apologize for explaining and over explaining points unrelated to the topic. But I never intended to give people grief over anything other than being closed minded.

Burnout18

01-26-2012, 02:53 AM

Burnout18

01-26-2012, 03:58 AM

Just because you happen to have a woman boss doesn't mean women are on equal footing at the workplace with men. You're using anecdotal evidence and applying it universally (not that you're the only one in this thread doing it.) Women are roughly 50% of the population, yet, women only make up 16% of Congress. Only 12 Fortune 500 companies have women CEOs.

How many fortune 500 companies have CEO's under 50? Under 40? I ask cause as I said earlier we are only a few generations from a college educated woman being frowned upon. However those old (sexist and racist) misgivings are being proven incorrect. And rightfully so. The more people you have in the work place the better chance your gonna find the best person for a position. Just guessing here, but I'm willing to bet that those 12 CEO's are a rising trend.

There a lots and lots of reasons why certain segments of society don't have the same advantages as someone like George Bush, or Robert Kennedy.

Certain segments? Try almost all segments. See that's what initially pissed me off, someone tried to make it sound like their opinion is out of touch cause their white, male and had a nice wedding. Those aren't qualifiers for being lumped in with bush, the Kennedy's or 1 percent. This may blow your mind but a shit ton of white kids have to bust their ass. So just cause you feel bad cause you think someone else had it harder, doesn't mean I didn't have to work for what I have.

The poor are often spending more resources on simply surviving, and therefore don't excell in school.

Let me think about this. So if my parent(s) is poor I'm gonna do bad in school? Thats what your saying. I don't like that. Theres other ways parents can influence their kids in school. Like maybe giving a shit.

There are a number of language and cultural barriers that many white people don't have to deal with at school and in jobs.

unless their first generation american of course, i know we're a long way from Ellis island, but ok. Your clearly talking about the establishment.

Girls are treated much differently in our school systems than boys. They are often discouraged in areas where boys are encouraged.

Maybe I missed all this when i was in school,like what? I'll come at this with an open mind if you tell me where the men Have the clear advantages. In 2012. And we aren't talking football/cheerleader here either.

Then you've got the fact that when women act the same way men do they are often percieved as "cunts".

They're still only making about 80 cents on the dollar compared to men. Society often abitrarily puts greater value on things that white men are geared to excell at because of their cultural upbringing. Historically, the SAT, the LSAT, IQ tests, etc. have all been culturally geared towards white men.

How? I've seen this before, throw in sergeant tests and shit like that, but how?

Many of these things may be invisible to you because you are white, and you are a man, but they are more than visible to a lot of minorities and women. [/QUOTE]
You saying I'm naive? You saying because I look at those in power (specifically obama) and think if they could do it, I can too, that's naive.

If I took you over to Afghanistan and dropped you into their school system you'd probably do poorly simply because you're a fish out of water and your skills and values don't line up with theirs. Things you take for granted now would become very clear. Even if they didn't openly discriminate against you, you'd still struggle because of the various cultural and institutional barriers that evolve to favor those in power. Even when systems aren't intentionally designed to favor certain groups, they often evovle that way.[/QUOTE]

Things would be rough for me, but hopefully my kids and their kids would adapt to the culture, move on and do better than me. Which is also what I'm Hoping for Here. Very few first generation people have it made. Or do adapt. But over generations, the would. As I kind of did. I'm not incredibly special but i did it (i think)and my moms was here for a decade before she had me, so maybe that helped.

In America, many of the rules, and many of our institutions are purposefully set up to cater to the rich (which happens to be mostly white men.) Those who make the rules often make them to favor themselves. The playing field has gotten severely out of whack. [/QUOTE]

Then let me ask you, how does affirmative action play into all this?

Sorry if that happens to make you feel like your accomplishments aren't as great as you think they are. There's no point in deluding yourself though.

Believe you me, there are no illusions of self grandeur here. And not for nothing I appreciate your tone now, unlike initially.

Burnout18

01-26-2012, 03:58 AM

Ok that wasn't perfect, but like I said I'm on a mobile app.

Burnout18

01-26-2012, 04:13 AM

listen, you keep putting this on yourself, but I'm not speaking about you specifically. I'm saying that yes, white men have more advantages. but I can also concede that not every single white man has the same advantages or more than every single non-white person.

I don't know your background, I don't know Turch's, but I do know wealth and/or stability when I see it. I know the attitude. I know that someone who had a hard time in life wouldn't just brush the Occupy movement aside. People with stability think, "pfft, I worked my ass off to get where I am, work harder!" and don't think I haven't thought that in regard to some of the kids down there. I don't agree with the circus aspect, but that's life. I'm not going to camp out downtown in front of the federal bank because that role is not for me. But it got people's attention, it got my attention. and I just can't see how complaining about them does any good, when the actual fundamental ideas behind what they're fighting for are good for all of us. We do need to wake up and see that we live in a new gilded age, where we've been sold the idea that money=substance. That we should just borrow and buy and borrow some more, for what? it's crazy, the banks ran wild giving credit, and then sold the debt and bet against the people they gave the credit to.

and like I said, I overcame my victimization in that I'm not living on the street or in my mom's basement, and in some ways it makes me work harder. but I still live in a world where opportunities are unfair because certain people don't want it to be fair, and they actively sustain and extend the unfairness through lobbying and tax loopholes. by taking advantage of people living in poverty for their own financial gain.

these things are wrong, and Occupy is trying to bring that to light. and it's a good thing.

Thank you. Holy shit how pissed off would you be if it was the other way around, If some guy came on here proclaiming that all Muslims are terrorists, or all black people are criminals? Why the fuck is looking at a photo and judging any different than that? It isn't to me, it's going off of preconceived notions. That's irritating.

And for shits and giggles its your socio-economic status and nepotism that is more inclined to dictate your path in life. Even if Obama had lost his 2008 campaign bid, wouldn't the daughters of a senator be better off than me or turch? Sasha and malia have a better shot of making it all the way back to dad's harvard law review than I ever did. Your kidding me if you think otherwise.

Dorothy Wood

01-26-2012, 10:07 AM

Thank you. Holy shit how pissed off would you be if it was the other way around, If some guy came on here proclaiming that all Muslims are terrorists, or all black people are criminals? Why the fuck is looking at a photo and judging any different than that? It isn't to me, it's going off of preconceived notions. That's irritating.

And for shits and giggles its your socio-economic status and nepotism that is more inclined to dictate your path in life. Even if Obama had lost his 2008 campaign bid, wouldn't the daughters of a senator be better off than me or turch? Sasha and malia have a better shot of making it all the way back to dad's harvard law review than I ever did. Your kidding me if you think otherwise.

well, I see you still don't quite get my point, but I can see your point of view. again, this turned into a shit storm over a quick comment I made without really thinking. I never said that "all white people are [anything]". If you perceived that I said that, I apologize for that.

I'm talking about a disconnect, about someone's background informing their present opinion. As an artist, as an educator, and someone who hangs out with loud mouth therapists and historians, I learn or am told that a person's background plays a huge role in how they think about other people. and that's really all I was trying to say...and I didn't say it very well.

I got on the defensive because you guys were like, "you're just jealous". which is beyond annoying when it's not about that. I was frustrated by seeing how arrogant you guys (mostly Turch, not you) were being by writing off people you don't even know in a movement that I think you were misunderstanding.

I mean, can you see how I would react negatively to someone coming in to claim that "Occupy is dead" based on one item of information that he didn't even read closely?

Ultimately, I wanted to bridge the gap, not divide everyone. but things got out of hand because I have a bad temper sometimes.

So, sorry about all the misunderstandings! I want everyone to be happy, honestly.

Mil Mascaras

01-26-2012, 06:35 PM

Dorothy Wood is either trolling or she is quite possibly the dumbest person on the internet.

Burnout18

01-26-2012, 07:44 PM

well, I see you still don't quite get my point, but I can see your point of view. again, this turned into a shit storm over a quick comment I made without really thinking. I never said that "all white people are [anything]". If you perceived that I said that, I apologize for that.

I'm talking about a disconnect, about someone's background informing their present opinion. As an artist, as an educator, and someone who hangs out with loud mouth therapists and historians, I learn or am told that a person's background plays a huge role in how they think about other people. and that's really all I was trying to say...and I didn't say it very well.

I got on the defensive because you guys were like, "you're just jealous". which is beyond annoying when it's not about that. I was frustrated by seeing how arrogant you guys (mostly Turch, not you) were being by writing off people you don't even know in a movement that I think you were misunderstanding.

I mean, can you see how I would react negatively to someone coming in to claim that "Occupy is dead" based on one item of information that he didn't even read closely?

Ultimately, I wanted to bridge the gap, not divide everyone. but things got out of hand because I have a bad temper sometimes.

So, sorry about all the misunderstandings! I want everyone to be happy, honestly.

Ok. I hear you. I have a temper too and its easy to blow up on the internet, u know? It's Not face to face so we can say whatever we want.