GREENEARTHAL

[Tone Capone]

I'm curious. How exactly do you want the world to work?

[GreenEarthAl]

I guess the easiest way to put it is this way:

I would like the world to prioritize Human Needs and deprioritize Profits. If a new innovation is going to give 1,200 people cancer but make 2 billion in profit for a corporation for example. Let's say that the 2 billion will greatly imact the CEO because he'll get a huge bonus, and it will impact the shareholder class greatly by enriching them, and it will impact some 60 to 70 people by providing them with jobs. I would like the needs of the 1200 people to win out and for the people to have some means to keep their region clean and natural. Instead the company will spend a few million on lobbying congress, they will spend a few million on a Public Relations firm that will fill up the newspapers with articles on how great this innovation is going to be and how those 70 jobs are going to save the city and then the corporation will get their 2 billion and the 1200 people will get dead.

I would like the abject poverty that the MAJORITY of the population of the Earth lives in to be unacceptable to people. And for everyone to do something about it.

I would like humanity to outgrow the artificial things that divide us. I would like the richest and most powerful nations to actually do truly altruistic things. To help others because it's the right thing to do rather than continuously strengthening our position in the world and consentrating the benefits of industry into fewer and fewer hands.

I would like education to flow to all corners.


I have written a whole big book and the ending gets into it a lot more, but that's some of how I would like it to work in a nutshell.

[Ace42]

I personally think that the key to that is, ironically enough, to do with something in the bible. When people are willing to do the right thing, even though it might cost them heavily personally, and benefit someone they don't know or like, when they are willing to do it because it is RIGHT, then mankind will be ready to do some special things. Until then, alas, vast swathes of it deserve nothing but contempt.

[GreenEarthAl]

I agree with you that humanity naturally organizes itself into hierarchies and that's why I'm not an anarchist. I believe that if you get 12 people together to perform a task, they will begin to assume their own leadership structure based on who's best suited to perform the task, who has prior experience etc.

I have a problem with a system that seeks to lock everything into place such that those who's parents were the leaders will become the leaders whether they are well suited to it or not. And for All of America's promises of the American dream and rags to riches the sad truth is that America is not well designed to enable people to become their potential.

Working at Pep-Boys is not some lowly plebean job. Nor do I buy into the idea that there are people who are above cleaning up after themselves or ever getting dirty. I work toward a world where everybody plays a role in their own self care, people take turns being the leader, everybody's talents are valued.

kthnx for askin.

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by David

Education perpetuates inequality. You can't have everyone go to college, because then "the bar" that our society sets would be pushed higher to a masters degree, or a doctors. Somebody will always have to work at Pep Boys.

I bet you'll say that education won't make things equal, but make a small disparity between the rich and poor.

Education should be free. It used to be really quite free here, but now it costs the moon on a stick for a joke.

As for "Someone will always have to work at pep boys" - that's what "illegal" immigrants are for. Stop turning them back, let them in.

And the alternative to this is communism.

[Tone Capone]

Originally Posted by GreenEarthAl

I guess the easiest way to put it is this way:

I would like the world to prioritize Human Needs and deprioritize Profits. If a new innovation is going to give 1,200 people cancer but make 2 billion in profit for a corporation for example. Let's say that the 2 billion will greatly imact the CEO because he'll get a huge bonus, and it will impact the shareholder class greatly by enriching them, and it will impact some 60 to 70 people by providing them with jobs. I would like the needs of the 1200 people to win out and for the people to have some means to keep their region clean and natural. Instead the company will spend a few million on lobbying congress, they will spend a few million on a Public Relations firm that will fill up the newspapers with articles on how great this innovation is going to be and how those 70 jobs are going to save the city and then the corporation will get their 2 billion and the 1200 people will get dead.

I would like the abject poverty that the MAJORITY of the population of the Earth lives in to be unacceptable to people. And for everyone to do something about it.

I would like humanity to outgrow the artificial things that divide us. I would like the richest and most powerful nations to actually do truly altruistic things. To help others because it's the right thing to do rather than continuously strengthening our position in the world and consentrating the benefits of industry into fewer and fewer hands.

I would like education to flow to all corners.


I have written a whole big book and the ending gets into it a lot more, but that's some of how I would like it to work in a nutshell.

But you realiza that all that will NEVER happen right? Now what is an acceptable compramise and what exactly are you doing to make these things happen ~other than posting on the BB message board?

[GreenEarthAl]

Originally Posted by Tone Capone

But you realiza that all that will NEVER happen right? Now what is an acceptable compramise and what exactly are you doing to make these things happen ~other than posting on the BB message board?

Not at all.

If you have a worthwhile thing that you wish to accomplish, what would be the point of thinking that it can never be accomplished or starting off by looking for compromises that fall short of said thing?

Okay, this is going to take a while, and I don't really have a while because I'm supposed to be packing, but... what the fuck.


Appart from posting on this message board I am an information technologist for progressive causes locally. I wanted to get involved, I started showing up to meetings (all of their meetings) I figured out what talents I had to offer and I started applying them.

One of the first things I noticed was that people had no way of knowing what was going on. You'd show up to any kind of event and there would always be people saying "Oh, I wish I had heard about that event that was yesterday." So being a programmer and designer I coded this perlscript that is now the Shared Calendar Project:
http://www.buffalopeacepeople.org/wnycalendar/
That has helped a lot locally with getting people involved in things. Lots of people are using it now.
Also designed this to go with it:
http://www.progressivedirectory.com/

Before I did that I had a few hobbyist websites and I was writing articles about major corporations to inform people of certain actualities. A few such articles from my website, CorporationsSuck.com:
http://www.corporations-suck.com/reports/monsanto.shtml
http://www.corporations-suck.com/reports/nestle.shtml
http://www.corporations-suck.com/rep...tractors.shtml

I spend a lot of hours at protests and rallies, etc.
http://www.allpowertothepeople.com/events/Manhattan/
MOst "anti-hippies" or however you want to classify yourselves characterise demostrations as a waste of time by the radical fringe, but I have gotten a lot accomplished by going to them. Similarly to holding discussions on this website I have learned a lot and taught a lot.
http://www.allpowertothepeople.com/e...WIB-BNews2.jpg
There are a lot of protestors that know a lot about past presidential administrations and congresses and you can learn a lot just by being quiet and listening to people who know things.

I also wrote a book, which took me nearly two years. And I wrote it partially so that I would have answers to questions like this, so, I'm gonna start quoting from it in a minute since this is taking to long. But so far my book has had a lot of good feedback and people have told me that it makes them think about life and the way we treat each other. It's a small step to be sure. But it's a small step that helps me pay the rent while I'm out trying to do bigger stuff.

I was the Buffalo creative director for an event that brought Ralph Nader to Buffalo in 2003 where he gave a very informative speech and I designed their website, sold a tenth of the tickets that were sold, yadda, yadda, etc.
http://www.peaceonearthweek.com/1/

I have also built campaign websites for any candidate who demostrates to me that they are for putting people's needs first:
http://www.buffalo4kucinich.com/
http://www.narimanforcongress.com/
http://www.judy4mayor.org/
http://www.allpowertothepeople.com/f...ayne.final.gif
and to volunteer outreach, fund-raising and some campaign organization in order to assist my friends that think that elections can change things in their struggle to see if they're right.

I have supported my belief in patronizing locally owned and opporated businesses by designing for them and supporting them as well.

Somewhere along the way some friends of mine and I decided that we were doing to many show-up-and-march-around-and-go-home events so we wanted to create some educational events. We created something called 11 Days of Education that now will happen every October here in Buffalo and last year (the first year) I ended up doing two presentations. One on Contemporary Racism (notes and links from that presentation located here: http://www.buffaloanswer.org/ARP.shtml ) and then I did one on Corporate Crime in 2001-2002 and explained a lot of the tough details to people that don't really understand corporate crime stories when they see it on the news.
http://www.buffstatepeace.org/11days/

Another problem we were having locally is that people in Buffalo fighting for the same goals are split and don't know where to find each other or how to talk to each other. A lot of my activists friends seemed like they were waiting for me to do it (bridge the gap) like "Hey Alex, you're black, can't you help us get more interest from the disafected people on the east side?" Well, no, not really. The people on the east side have heard all that shit before and little seems to ever change over there so they really aren't interested in marching around carrying a sign for the most part. BUT when I saw them speaking up and taking a stand on their own issues I scrambled to help out and build a bridge and offer my services. The issue in question was police brutality because there was a case where the cops beat up a bus driver for yelling at them to stop beating up a little high school girl. In addition to doing their website, I support them in a lot of their other ways.
http://www.coalitionagainstpoliceabuse.org/

From there that led me to doing a lot of work with a group called East Side PRIDE that was doing really good stuff. Too good. A lot of money got put into destroying them so that the East side could stay shitty.

And I have made a lot of theistic friends that aren't like gmsisko1 and so I have helped them and they have helped me. Here's some work I'm doing for one fine person and, really great organization:
http://www.paxchristiwny.org/

Also by way of educating people we brought Democracy Now to Buffalo which is a long story (but a good one) and I designed websites, stickers, etc. for that and help fund raise to keep the show on the air here in Buffalo:
http://www.radiofreebuffalo.org/

There's more but I'm out of time. Nevermind quoting from my book, just put it this way. I am doing everything I can possibly think of to try to make these things happen.

(in addition to posting on this message board)

(Now, if you'll excuse me I'm going to New Mexico to participate in some anti-oppression workshops with some cool Unitarian Universalist Youths)

[Tone Capone]

Originally Posted by GreenEarthAl

Not at all.

If you have a worthwhile thing that you wish to accomplish, what would be the point of thinking that it can never be accomplished or starting off by looking for compromises that fall short of said thing?

Okay, this is going to take a while, and I don't really have a while because I'm supposed to be packing, but... what the fuck.


Appart from posting on this message board I am an information technologist for progressive causes locally. I wanted to get involved, I started showing up to meetings (all of their meetings) I figured out what talents I had to offer and I started applying them.

One of the first things I noticed was that people had no way of knowing what was going on. You'd show up to any kind of event and there would always be people saying "Oh, I wish I had heard about that event that was yesterday." So being a programmer and designer I coded this perlscript that is now the Shared Calendar Project:
http://www.buffalopeacepeople.org/wnycalendar/
That has helped a lot locally with getting people involved in things. Lots of people are using it now.
Also designed this to go with it:
http://www.progressivedirectory.com/

Before I did that I had a few hobbyist websites and I was writing articles about major corporations to inform people of certain actualities. A few such articles from my website, CorporationsSuck.com:
http://www.corporations-suck.com/reports/monsanto.shtml
http://www.corporations-suck.com/reports/nestle.shtml
http://www.corporations-suck.com/rep...tractors.shtml

I spend a lot of hours at protests and rallies, etc.
http://www.allpowertothepeople.com/events/Manhattan/
MOst "anti-hippies" or however you want to classify yourselves characterise demostrations as a waste of time by the radical fringe, but I have gotten a lot accomplished by going to them. Similarly to holding discussions on this website I have learned a lot and taught a lot.
http://www.allpowertothepeople.com/e...WIB-BNews2.jpg
There are a lot of protestors that know a lot about past presidential administrations and congresses and you can learn a lot just by being quiet and listening to people who know things.

I also wrote a book, which took me nearly two years. And I wrote it partially so that I would have answers to questions like this, so, I'm gonna start quoting from it in a minute since this is taking to long. But so far my book has had a lot of good feedback and people have told me that it makes them think about life and the way we treat each other. It's a small step to be sure. But it's a small step that helps me pay the rent while I'm out trying to do bigger stuff.

I was the Buffalo creative director for an event that brought Ralph Nader to Buffalo in 2003 where he gave a very informative speech and I designed their website, sold a tenth of the tickets that were sold, yadda, yadda, etc.
http://www.peaceonearthweek.com/1/

I have also built campaign websites for any candidate who demostrates to me that they are for putting people's needs first:
http://www.buffalo4kucinich.com/
http://www.narimanforcongress.com/
http://www.judy4mayor.org/
http://www.allpowertothepeople.com/f...ayne.final.gif
and to volunteer outreach, fund-raising and some campaign organization in order to assist my friends that think that elections can change things in their struggle to see if they're right.

I have supported my belief in patronizing locally owned and opporated businesses by designing for them and supporting them as well.

Somewhere along the way some friends of mine and I decided that we were doing to many show-up-and-march-around-and-go-home events so we wanted to create some educational events. We created something called 11 Days of Education that now will happen every October here in Buffalo and last year (the first year) I ended up doing two presentations. One on Contemporary Racism (notes and links from that presentation located here: http://www.buffaloanswer.org/ARP.shtml ) and then I did one on Corporate Crime in 2001-2002 and explained a lot of the tough details to people that don't really understand corporate crime stories when they see it on the news.
http://www.buffstatepeace.org/11days/

Another problem we were having locally is that people in Buffalo fighting for the same goals are split and don't know where to find each other or how to talk to each other. A lot of my activists friends seemed like they were waiting for me to do it (bridge the gap) like "Hey Alex, you're black, can't you help us get more interest from the disafected people on the east side?" Well, no, not really. The people on the east side have heard all that shit before and little seems to ever change over there so they really aren't interested in marching around carrying a sign for the most part. BUT when I saw them speaking up and taking a stand on their own issues I scrambled to help out and build a bridge and offer my services. The issue in question was police brutality because there was a case where the cops beat up a bus driver for yelling at them to stop beating up a little high school girl. In addition to doing their website, I support them in a lot of their other ways.
http://www.coalitionagainstpoliceabuse.org/

From there that led me to doing a lot of work with a group called East Side PRIDE that was doing really good stuff. Too good. A lot of money got put into destroying them so that the East side could stay shitty.

Also by way of educating people we brought Democracy Now to Buffalo which is a long story (but a good one) and I designed websites, stickers, etc. for that and help fund raise to keep the show on the air here in Buffalo:
http://www.radiofreebuffalo.org/

There's more but I'm out of time. Nevermind quoting from my book, just put it this way. I am doing everything I can possibly think of to try to make these things happen.

(in addition to posting on this message board)

wow. I can respect that ... but still there is no way all you want will be accomplished EVER. What would be a reasonable compromise?

[Tone Capone]

in your opinion.

[nines]

Originally Posted by Tone Capone

wow. I can respect that ... but still there is no way all you want will be accomplished EVER. What would be a reasonable compromise?

Okay Alex, since you aren't here I'm just gonna pinch hit a bit.
Why can it not be? Because YOU say so? Because it would mean tremendous change? Why should there have to be a compromise?
People have said things like "it will never happen" in the past...you know civil rights? Woman's lib...? Change CAN happen concerning any aspect of this life. Alex may have a bigger fish to fry than most but he works at it tirelessly. I say just keep truckin' on, Alex, you do more than anyone I personally know, you inspired me and I'm sure that you inspire others.
Oh, and have fun in NM. Do your thang. I'll miss you.

[Tone Capone]

Originally Posted by nines

Okay Alex, since you aren't here I'm just gonna pinch hit a bit.
Why can it not be? Because YOU say so? Because it would mean tremendous change? Why should there have to be a compromise?
People have said things like "it will never happen" in the past...you know civil rights? Woman's lib...? Change CAN happen concerning any aspect of this life. Alex may have a bigger fish to fry than most but he works at it tirelessly. I say just keep truckin' on, Alex, you do more than anyone I personally know, you inspired me and I'm sure that you inspire others.
Oh, and have fun in NM. Do your thang. I'll miss you.

That's not an answer to my question of "What would be an acceptable compromise"...

[bilbo]

Don't feed the troll.

[Tone Capone]

acceptable compromise????

[GreenEarthAl]

Thanks Denise.

Tone. Please understand that I do not view any of this change as unatainable. I don't see any point to viewing things as unatainable before you try.

Recently: After the anti-globalization demonstration in Seattle in 1999 some kids (may have even been kids over 18 years of age, I call them kids because I think of myself at age 18 and 19 and I think "kid") wanted to start a global media network. It was a laughably ambitious goal, but indimedia.org is alive and well and GLOBAL and kicking out information to more and more people every day.

When the WTO was meeting in Cancoon, Mexico there was supposed to be "no way these demonstrations are going to prevent the IMF/WB from getting what they want", but yet that happened.

Same with the FTAA talks in Miami. The U.S. Public Relations industry really had to dig deep to find a way to frame that as a win. Our friends in El Salvador and Chile are doing the bilateral thing and the stronger countries may yet fold the poorer countries and Venezuela may yet be overthrown, who can say what the future holds, but at least the countries of Central and South America have stopped giving up without a fight.


So the whole acceptable compromise thing is premature and useless and I don't opperate that way. I'm willing to accept the people of the planet Earth caring about all the other people of the planet Earth. I don't see what setting a lower goal or an acceptable fall back position would accomplish. The goal is to get the whole thing.

[rorschach]

Originally Posted by GreenEarthAl

I'm willing to accept the people of the planet Earth caring about all the other people of the planet Earth. I don't see what setting a lower goal or an acceptable fall back position would accomplish. The goal is to get the whole thing.

I can dig that

[Tone Capone]

Originally Posted by GreenEarthAl

Thanks Denise.

Tone. Please understand that I do not view any of this change as unatainable. I don't see any point to viewing things as unatainable before you try.

Recently: After the anti-globalization demonstration in Seattle in 1999 some kids (may have even been kids over 18 years of age, I call them kids because I think of myself at age 18 and 19 and I think "kid") wanted to start a global media network. It was a laughably ambitious goal, but indimedia.org is alive and well and GLOBAL and kicking out information to more and more people every day.

When the WTO was meeting in Cancoon, Mexico there was supposed to be "no way these demonstrations are going to prevent the IMF/WB from getting what they want", but yet that happened.

Same with the FTAA talks in Miami. The U.S. Public Relations industry really had to dig deep to find a way to frame that as a win. Our friends in El Salvador and Chile are doing the bilateral thing and the stronger countries may yet fold the poorer countries and Venezuela may yet be overthrown, who can say what the future holds, but at least the countries of Central and South America have stopped giving up without a fight.


So the whole acceptable compromise thing is premature and useless and I don't opperate that way. I'm willing to accept the people of the planet Earth caring about all the other people of the planet Earth. I don't see what setting a lower goal or an acceptable fall back position would accomplish. The goal is to get the whole thing.

interesting.

[Tone Capone]

HOW long do you think it would take to do something like that? reasonably

[LIMERICKFILE]

GEA, I've seen a multitude of posts on this forum asking your guidance, your stance on difficult subjects, your viewpoint on situations, and it is no doubt that many around here respect both your words on this forum, but work that you do elsewhere online and off of your computer.

What kind of schooling have you had? Any specific life experiences that you can say have led you where you are presently?

Just curious, plus it's 4 in the morning here, so i'm tired and had some time to type this.


All the same questions towards Anasazi too, just because I'm curious as to how you would answer them.

[Bob]

GEA is rapidly approaching gandhi-status, i think. i mean, he's dedicated to a goal and he's not interested in compromise, he riles up alot of people but never loses his cool, and alot of people look up to him for guidance (well, me for one, and i know that blindly following you would be missing the point completely, but you get the idea)...i hope that happens for you out there in real life, too. so ten years from now, i can say "dude, i knew gandhi #2, i talked to him on the internet, i still mean to buy his book sometime, i swear".

and with any luck, i won't have to say "it's too bad they killed him, that's always their response to unmitigated love", i don't need anymore dead heroes, that's for sure. tell you what, i have a big head, let me know when you're famous, i'll hang around you, they'll probably hit me instead

[GreenEarthAl]

Originally Posted by Tone Capone

HOW long do you think it would take to do something like that? reasonably

situation: You have an absolute mess in your house. Layers upon layer of filth and grime, you can't see the floor, You can't even get a decent sense of how big the rooms are any more. You have no idea how dirty the layers under the top layer are; whether their cruddy, cluttery, grimy or what have you.

You can:

a) start drawing a diagram and gant charts and timetables and plotting it all out and bullshit the people around you into thinking you really do have a good estimate of how long it will take.

b) start cleanin.

and then if at some point along the way you realize that making an org chart or two will help expidite the cleaning, make the chart at that point.


Personally, I have no idea how long it will take to change the people of the world and how hard the powers that benefit from the status quo will fight back or even who they all are. All I know is... shit is dirty. And I'm cleanin as fast as I can.

(and bob's laying down cover for me while I clean apparently )

[LIMERICKFILE]

I thought i saw a ghost.....

[Uru-Nitro]

GEA, if you have to re-make the world, please skip the religions (all of them)

[mcaismyhero]

Originally Posted by Uru-Nitro

GEA, if you have to re-make the world, please skip the religions (all of them)

I don't think that could happen. Humans have always believed in some sort of higher power, from the beginning of time. I don't think, if the world were re-created, that humans would stop believing in God. And besides, if GEA re-made the world, then he WOULD BE God.

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by Uru-Nitro

GEA, if you have to re-make the world, please skip the religions (all of them)

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.
-Voltaire

[Uru-Nitro]

Originally Posted by Ace42

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.
-Voltaire

we should kill americans in the name of Ala
-Many muslims

we should kill muslims in the name of God
-Many christians and jews

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by Uru-Nitro

we should kill americans in the name of Ala
-Many muslims

we should kill muslims in the name of God
-Many christians and jews

I think many muslims spell Allah correctly. However, as sweeping ignorant generalisations go, that was certainly one of the most bare-faced I've ever seen.

[Uru-Nitro]

Originally Posted by mcaismyhero

I don't think that could happen. Humans have always believed in some sort of higher power, from the beginning of time

humans have always killed, stolen, etc. but the good thing of live the present is that we can learn from the bad things happened on the past.

I don't believe in ANY god, and I don't need to. I don't have any reason to think that there's one "being" that controlls everything in the world and he decides when we have to die or born or whatever... and I can't understand how somebody can believe it.

[Uru-Nitro]

Originally Posted by Ace42

I think many muslims spell Allah correctly

...wait, spanish is the language spoken in more countries (yes, even more than english). and in spanish "Allah" is "Ala". do you really think that in arabic is "allah"?? NO. allah it's the name in english, and first persons in say "ALA" weren't english-speakers, so don't be than stupid of bullshiting my post for putting "Ala" in spanish insted of "Allah" in english.

there's A LOT of world outside the USA of wherever you live in.

[Ace42]

Originally Posted by Uru-Nitro

...wait, spanish is the language spoken in more countries (yes, even more than english). and in spanish "Allah" is "Ala". do you really think that in arabic is "allah"?? NO. allah it's the name in english, and first persons in say "ALA" weren't english-speakers, so don't be than stupid of bullshiting my post for putting "Ala" in spanish insted of "Allah" in english.

Sorry, you think the Muslims who hate the US live in Spanish speaking provinces? Pshaw, bullshit. Almost all of the US hating flag-burners live in the middle-east where they do NOT speak spanish.

If you are claiming that "Ala" is a more representative way of spelling it (despite this not being a spanish speaking board, despite your post not being in spanish, despite spanish having nothing at all to do with this in any way shape or form) that's a load of crap. You might equally have been using the chinese spelling of Allah if that was the case.

If you were really trying to do that, you'd've called christians "cristianos" in your post too.

"Yah, I translated what they said into English, EXCEPT FOR ONE KEY WORD" - that makes so much sense.

Stop trying to cover up the fact that you are full of shit. Or, alternatively, do it in a more convincing manner.

there's A LOT of world outside the USA of wherever you live in.

You don't even know where I live, and yet you try and use it as some sort of put-down? Duhhhhh.

"There's a lot of world outside wherever you live..." - NO SHIT! Of course, there ISN'T a lot of world outside where YOU live is there?

[EN[i]GMA]

All religions? Thats not very smart if God happens to exist. How about Deism? It evil? Is the entire concept of religion bad or just they it's applied currently? Would a perfectly logical religion also be bad? Is it the illogic that you dislike?